Ad/Da omvandlare.

[KaH]

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http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-...converters.html

soundcard dilema::

AD/DA chips

op-amps

circuit design: dc-blocked by cappacitors, electronically balanced,etc..

wordclock sweetness and accuracy

asio drivers performance

i own rme hdsp9632 the asio drivers are great and the SteadyClock sounds beutifull

the 1820m asio drivers are not good, the wordclock 576ps sounds like crap compared to SteadyClock

but... the AD/DA in 1820m + SteadyClock

sounds amazing

makes the RME HDSP9632 AD/DA sound like:::

silver vs. gold

i dont like the AD/DA RME sound in my hdsp9632, but the ASiO drivers and the SteadyClock love them

subjective speaking, personal taste, maybe you do

its not black or white

if you listen a hi-jitter recorded song "old ones", with a verry low-jitter like emu 1820m will sound like crap,

but..

if you listen a low-jitter recorded song "most new ones" with a pro hi-jitter device like alesis ai-2, highs will almost dissapear

i like to keep arround my old alesis ai-2 sometimes hi-jitter sounds great

but RME SteadyClock its verry musical and compatible

dont like the emu1820m wordclock

other wordclock i like its the m-audio audiophile 192,

makes the tc electronic finalizer express wordclock sound like wrong highs

the drivers: ?

RME hdsp9632 Asio are the best so far (but output have a 32samples safe buf

but are the best ASIO so far, no DS, MME usable ()

digi001 Asio are verry good, DS/MME sometimes usable

M-audio audiophile 192 verry good DS drivers 20ms, Asio usable

emu 1820m Asio usable to 8ms/384samples, MME/DS 40ms usable

digi002 asio drivers v.6.x not verry usable

soon to test lynx drivers

the chips: ?

when listening m-audio ap192 vs. emu 1820m

i noticed that AKM DA sounds verry diferent than cirrus logic DA

AKM in M-audio AP192 sounds plastic up front, vs. soft-knee realistic

the AD in 1820m sounded much better than the AD in M-audio AP192

both akm but newer model

even the cirrus logic DA sounds more "analog" i like more the AKM DA plasic up-front sound

circuit design?

the m-audio audiphile 192, wordclock signal was getting too hot to the AD/DA chips, sounded like a bit overloaded, and a bit clipped,

some free cakewalk.com trumpet samples sounded clipped in the m-audio ap192, but... didnt sounded clipped in the emu 1820m + m-audio ap192 wordclock by s/pdif

the rme hdsp9632 has cirrus logic DA like emu 1820m DA, but.. older

they sound diferent, but same cirrus logic vibe

the RME DA sounds more grey (almost colorless), more bass, and a bit more detailed

the emu 1820m+SteadyClock sounds golden colored, a bit less bass, and a bit blurish/less detailed in some parts

even its lower noise and newer chip

not to worry

i like more the 1820m with RME SteadyClock colored sound, over the grey lifeless but detailed sound

im thinking about getting an esi ex8000 and usign it by adat with the RME hdsp9632 SteadyClock

or a lynx aurora 8 or lucid audio 88192, or UA2192, or Lynx TWO/L22

anyway,

havent heard A/B the Burr-Brown Texas Instruments AD/DA chips

there are files to listen in

MYTEK DIGITAL USA

and

Black Lion Audio Home

EMU 1820M/1212M: A/D:AKM AK5394A; D/A: Cirrus Logic CS4398

Lynx TWO/L22: A/D:AKM AK5394A; D/A: Cirrus Logic CS4396

RME HDSP 9632: A/D:AKM AK5385A; D/A: Analog Devices 1852

M-Audio Audiophile 192: A/D:AKM AK5385A; D/A: AKM AK4358

ESI Juli@: A/D:AKM AK5385A; D/A: AKM AK4358

EGO SYSTEMS MAXIO EX8K: A/D:AKM AK5394A; D/A: AKM AK4395

DIGI 192 I/O PTHD: A/D:AKM AK5394A; D/A: AKM AK4394

mackie.com 400f, DXB: A/D:AKM AK5385A; D/A: AKM AK4358

RME FireFace800: A/D:AKM AK5385A; D/A: AKM AK4396

RME ADI-8DS: A/D:AKM AK5393A; D/A: Analog Devices 1852

APOGEE AD8000SE: A/D:AKM AK5391; D/A: Analog Devices 1851

EMU 1820: A/D: Texas Instruments PCM1804; D/A: Cirrus Logic CS4392

EMU 0404: A/D: Texax Instruments PCM1804; D/A: AKM AK4395

Snacka om att den här killen har bra koll.

Nästa Grymma inlägg:

From a technical point of view, there are some very discrete symptoms of a poor converter. I could explain each, but the most harmful symptom is jitter-induced artifacts. The reason this is the most harmful is because it will add tones to the audio that are completely non-musical related.

For example, if you record a song in C-major, the jitter can cause tones that are not only out of the key, but may not even be an exact note (it could be a pitch between notes). So, you've got each instrument tuned up perfectly and playing C-major together, but the converter is adding a note somewhere between G# and A. The result is, instead of the beautiful, euphoric C-major sound you expected, there are ugly, completely out-of-tune notes added. They aren't as loud as the instruments, obviously, but the beauty of the symphony of C-majors is lost and gone. Its like 5 members of a 30-piece choir singing completely out of key.

The reason jitter is 'non-musical' is because the tones are related to the jitter frequency, which is related to the sampling clock and other noise, none of which is related to the pitches of the music.

This type of distortion is different then, for instance, tube or transformer distortion which will add tones relative to the music you are putting through them.

So, the question may not be, "Can you hear the difference between converters", but more "Can you tell when an instrument is out-of-tune", because that is what jitter will do to your recordings.

When monitoring through a D/A, this will cause you to pull out your hair trying to 'clean up' a mix. You'll be reaching deeper and deeper with your eq's, trying to dig out 'the garbage', when the 'garbage' was actually just jitter-artifacts that were causing the playback to sound bad. Even if your tracks were recorded perfectly, they will sound bad during playback/monitoring when the jitter hits the D/A.

Furthermore, that jitter won't be consistent between playback systems. So, even if you think you're fixing something that will be added by a cheap stereo anyway, you'll be frustrated when you find out that the jitter in the D/A of each cheap CD player/iPod is adding completely different things. Also, you'll realize that you completely adjusted your mix based on the jitter you heard while mixing, and now those adjustments aren't helping, and possibly hurting your mix.

I spent too much time 'chasing ghosts' in my mix before I realized I was trying to fix my D/A instead of my mix.

__________________

________________________________________________

ELIAS GWINN

____________________

Electrical Engineer

Benchmark Media Systems

[KaH]

Ganska bra sammanfattning av killen här:

i owned a benchmark dac-1, RME, Apogee, and now have a uln2...so im not justifying any converter. i speak from personal experience not heresy... its "personal experience"... all i meant to say is that ,a dac-1 or a prizm will not necessarily make you produce/mix better music, for some it will for others not. The animated character in my line i hope is not showing a middle finger, just a gesture of disagreement right? if so, please pardon that, and i will remove...dont want any enemies just a friendly debate. 🙂

"Its time to acknowledge a few key points the people seem to be missing entirely.

- Mixing and recording music has a significantly different purpose than just listening to produced audio."

i don't get this..what is this purpose?? i thought the key to producing good music lie's in the "art of listening" to audio youre making. Kinda the same thing, no?

"- Its not your job to make your music translate on every system, its your job to make the absolute best music and mix you can. Its the mastering engineers job to make your music translate on every system. The mastering engineer adheres to the "shit in equals shit out" principle just like the rest of us."

but if you cannot anticipate how the mix will sound to the outside world its a mixing mistake aswell, no?, the mastering engineer isn't capable of correcting your chosen sound sources or relative balance of elements within the mix, ive learned thru countless trials and errors that a great record is still 95% in the mix. If thats off, back to the drawing boards. Or you can pay much more for the ME to mix/master stems.

"Some replies in this thread just leave me scratching my head. I'd say some people have never even used high quality converters judging by some of the responses. Flip on your ipod and have a listen... you can hear differences in quality based on the recording methods and mix created. If an ipod turned everything production into the same generic sound you might have a point, but it doesn't... quite far from it. Feel free to blame Ipods or peoples listening habits, but you really are kidding yourself... so much so that I find it rather amusing."

What i find amusing is your absolute stance on something that is so subjective..i dont disagree that mixing on a neve, ssl, prizm's, weiss's "could" and chances are would give better results to a particular style, producer, musician, but its naive to say its necessary to get a great sound. I define quality by the selection of sound sources and their respective cohesion, arrangement, writing skills, creative mixing , sound design then judging by what converter was used. As i said before whatever floats your boat is fine...if you have the budget to get the high-end stuff go ahead, its all good, who's to say its wrong, but to put down everything else that is not of the absolute best and expensive is.......oh well!.

PS converters over or at 1k dont have much "jitter" these days to be of any major concern...and thinking back to technical specs of gear back in the 80-90's they are far more superior in almost every respect, except in how most use them. This is were the problem remains.